Episode 2 - Why Contractors LOVE Fluid-Applied Air Barriers

Welcome back to PROSOCO PROTalks, the podcast where we break down the most pressing topics in construction and building product manufacturing. In this episode we chat with Stace Grund of Tatley-Grund, Inc., a contractor from the Seattle area. We discuss fluid-applied air barriers and why contractors love working with them . 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

Hello, welcome to, uh, PROCO talks or pro talks as we like to call it here. I'm Dave Pennington. I'm the building M low group manager for PROCO. Uh, today I have with me Staun who is the fifth generation owner of gr painting, the oldest painting contractor in Seattle. Um, but he is also, uh, the owner of tally gr, which is a restoration contracting company that was founded in 1991 with STAs and, um, his partner, Ron Taly, um, sta and tally run were the origins of the S T P products that we manufacture today, uh, at PROCO, uh, they were partners with us in that, uh, but they, uh, were the people that put it, put that product chemistry together for the application and, and building envelope work. So, um, what I'd like to do is, uh, send it over to sta and let him kind of tell us, uh, why these products were created. Um, Stace, would you like to take it?

Speaker 2: 1:24

Sure. Thanks, Dave. Um, so yeah, just kind of going in the way back machine, uh, history. So, uh, talent run was started as Dave said in, in 1991, um, by we, um, specifically are designed to be, um, primarily a self-performing general kind contractor, uh, specialized in building envelope, repairs, and maintenance and effective construction, uh, by 95, uh, we really got into quite a bit of, uh, water damage in the Seattle marketplace, water damage, construction, uh, defect repair, and by the mid, uh, to, or nineties. Um, Ronley and I were really starting to analyze the details that we were asked to kind of put building envelopes back together again. So, um, we would do fixed frame scaffold, put enclosure, and then we'd be taking off three to five stories of a stucco cladding or an eaves cladding, or a final siding, uh, woods siding, um, because there was significant, uh, RO damage to the sheathing, exterior sheathing, a lot of times OSB or plywood. Um, and then also the, uh, wall cavity in the stud cavity, uh, this kind of before, uh, rain screen cladding assemblies, uh, really became to be specified and used a lot more in north America. So the details we were just asked to put back quite, quite similar to what we were just pulling apart. And so we were concerned about it from almost a, a defective construction on ours, even if we did it right. Some of those details that we, we thought were maybe, uh, quite frankly, kind of suspect as far as keeping water out of the building. So we started, uh, we built our own, um, test chamber in 2000, uh, just as a contractor. And we just wanted to kind of, um, determine, you know, what's going on, understand the performance characteristics of some of the materials and some of the details. And so, um, so we did that and we focused on windows early on. Uh, we do quite a bit of multi-family apartments and condominium work. Uh, the window to wall ratio was high in multi-family. So, uh, we started in installing windows in different details, uh, used quite a bit of peel and stick at the time. That's what we were using. And we found the performance, uh, was quite lacking on that. So we looked out on the marketplace to try to come up with a better way, uh, to install windows primarily, uh, with windows. Uh, as many of us know, the themselves can leak the installation or the penetration wrap can leak neither of them or both of them can leak. And so we really wanted to come up with a system that could waterproof the window into the rough opening and also account for a current or future leaking window, if that happens. So after a year or two of looking out on the marketplace, we couldn't find anything. Um, we did, uh, work with, uh, one well known large construction, uh, material manufacturer, uh, in north America has showed some interest in that. Um, we ultimately, they were silicone a hundred percent silicone based technology. And one of the main things we were looking for was to the, uh, liquid applied membrane to be able to bond a wet substrate. So ultimately that wasn't gonna be it with a hundred percent silicone technology. So kind of fast forward to 2005, and we just couldn't find anything out on the marketplace. So, uh, a couple of goofball on TA and I, at the time we decided to hire a chemist, uh, and make our own product. Um, so we did that. The chemist had a formulation and initial product within about six months, um, after we'd hired him, uh, it was a silo terminated, poly Uther based, uh, product St. P that he had had some private previous experience with. Um, so he came on board, uh, in 95 and by the end of our, our 2005, and by the end of 2005, uh, we were using it, uh, on our restoration repair projects.

Speaker 1: 5:36

That's great. That's, uh, really interesting, but, um, I would, uh, two things actually space. You talked about how you guys, um, put together your own test chambers, you know, for, for the audience. I would point out that, uh, those test chambers were no joke. They were not a, a wood frame structure or plastic wrapped around them. They were welded aluminum, uh, that could do, you know, over 200 mile an hour positive, negative pressure, introduce, you know, um, water and, and all sorts of things and have really evolved over the years, um, to the point where we've had principles from the air barrier association of America, we've had principles from Oak Ridge national labs come in, we've had, um, a lot of people check'em out and, and, and we're very impressed. So as a contractor, you know, you glossed over it, but, uh, testing your details and testing your products was very critical to what you guys did. And I think a lot of the reason why, uh, PROCO was attracted, um, to the partnership, but also the performance and the, uh, characteristics of the chemistry, the St P E um, if you wouldn't mind, you know, I know that you went through a lot of, um, consideration about what you were looking for in a product and why you, um, uh, gravitated to the, uh, this particular chemistry. Um, can you give us a little bit of, uh, the things you were looking for the wishlist, so to speak of characteristics and why these matter to contractors?

Speaker 2: 7:16

Yeah. So not only what we learned, uh, by testing again, the, at the time, um, it still might be with some manufacturers window manufacturers, uh, window and door, you know, was a fairly complicated, uh, peel and stick building paper type wrap, uh, multiple layers in there with flanged or, or flan list, windows and doors. Um, and again, we tested that, uh, we were really concerned about the, the consistency on the performance of that, uh, to keep water out. And so that was a big driver was just, uh, quality control for one. It, similarly, we, we think that we, you know, have, uh, good crews, uh, good men and women working in the field for us and well trained, but really to get that right consistently really kind of, quite frankly, it scared us E even with good crews, the mockup that we did to test, uh, was done by our best guy and it failed. And so we really thought about that saying, gosh, what's gonna happen out on the job site when we're installing, you know, a thousand windows on one project on, on a defective construction repair project. Um, so it was really a quality control was kind of, that was what was the main driver on that, um, ease of installation, um, and kind of low, low level of training in the level of technical ability to be able to install. Um, so as, as you had mentioned, Dave, we came up with a wishlist. We had 27 items that we wanted on there. Uh, and those are, you know, a single component membrane that you can either paint on or trial on, into the rough opening, um, that it was, um, can bond to wet substrates that it's moisture cured. Um, and in the Northwest, a lot of times we protect areas. Sometimes we can't. And we wanted the flexibility of being able to work year round with a brain that could bond right to wet substrates, and even in a light rain that you can do it, you can't apply it to standing water, but you can brush the water off and essentially apply the membrane and it will cure, cure out. Uh, and even in pretty saturated substrates like wood, it can cure out, uh, and do fine, uh, over time. So those part of the 27 items, uh, that we were looking for a lot of our work, all of it is an occupied building. So we wanted no odor, uh, a lot of the products that we do work with they're, they're problematic inside buildings, uh, different urethane deck coatings, things like that, um, from different smells, our problematic. So that was one of the 27 items. So really that's what we gave the chemist. When we hired him, say, this is really the product that we want, that fits our niche in the construction industry, that that will take care of, uh, everything that we're concerned about. Um, from a quality control standpoint, we wanted it to be, uh, reach opacity or that it's, uh, opaque does not see through once it hits the desired mil film thickness, uh, from a quality control standpoint was able to do that. Um, uh, probably another huge issue. Uh, and back when we were, um, looking at this in the early two, thousands was a vapor permeability. So, uh, that was, has always been our approach from the test chamber and what learn from the test chamber, uh, you know, we need to be waterproof. We want to be an air barrier from energy standpoint, but we want to be vapor permeable, and we're not going to try to out guess mother nature. And so what's right in Seattle, in, um, in December is not what's right in Florida in December. What's right in Seattle, in December, doesn't work for Seattle in August. And what's right for Seattle in August at 2:00 AM, might not be what's best in Seattle, in August at 2:00 PM. So, uh, there's just all kinds of different variables that can happen, uh, with vapor drive, uh, the building, uh, H V a C system exterior pressures that are happening. So let's just make it vapor for permeable and not try to out guess what's happening. So that was a huge one that we did. And so that, that was really kind of a major, uh, breakthrough to get a vapor permeable, but an air barrier in a waterproof coating all at the same time.

Speaker 1: 11:33

Yeah, that's, that's great. And that's a lot of consideration. Um, quite frankly, I find it fascinat that you were able to, um, identify a chemistry that can hit all those markers, you know, um, the benefits of which, uh, just as a, as an applicator, as a contractor are tremendous. Um, is there a good project that maybe you could share with us where any, or all of these, um, specific, uh, attributes have helped you, um, do something that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to do?

Speaker 2: 12:09

Yeah. You know, um, not one in particular, but basically hundreds or even thousands of projects that I can think of that that really help us out, um, you know, from irregular openings. And so if you have a window that maybe has a semi-circle top on it to think about that, of how you're going to do peel and stick wrap in that opening or building paper, or wrap the Tyvec in, um, and then really any penetration through the cladding. So if you're thinking about a hose bib, um, penetration through their tough to kind of flash, a circular item that comes through, and when your liquid applied, uh, it fits every opening every time, uh, and being a brushed on or ruled on location, it could be an electrical penetra. It can be, uh, kind of a, a for years, we were making our own, we had our own sheet metal shop where we were making kind of custom flashing pieces. Uh, and if you think about a vertical wall with a horizon, with a deck coming out, horizon deck on a four story, you know, condominium our apartment, building that deck to wall interface and getting that happening. And a lot of people will just kind of run the deck, coating up the wall, but if it's on the outside edge of that deck on the corner, where that meets the building, you actually have multiple interfaces that are happening there. So we would make a sheet metal boot and then run the, that coating over that. Well, when we came up with, um, these products, we basically took our sheet metal shop and put it outta business, cuz we went to liquid applied for flashing everything, uh, it's faster, uh, in, from a labor savings. That was the other one of our 27 items, um, was really important to us was also, you know, labor savings as opposed to making, you know, custom sheet metal interface boots or stainless steel type boots where appropriate. There's certainly there's some through wall flashing pieces that makes a lot more sense to be, you know, a metal or a stainless than, than it does liquid applied. But for so many of'em, it makes sense. Uh, you know, you think about, uh, if you've got a four or five or, you know, a story, um, building maybe not a commercial building curtain wall system, but where you're gonna have a cladding or a siding think about, you know, kind of reinforcing and waterproofing the inside and outside corners, uh, that's where the liquid applied comes in. Perfect as opposed to trying to use some other type waterproofing product on inside or outside corners. Um, so really it is all of our projects, you know, from installing in, in Clement weather to those unusual circumstances. Um, you know, again, all of our products are in our projects are on occupied buildings. So again, being low, no odor essentially, uh, and relatively easy to install, you know, um, the current labor market, um, the, in my opinion, the average skill level is less than 10 year, years ago or 20 years ago. And so being really easy to install in an easy system to master, uh, this is really helping us out even moving forward in the current labor market as far as just from a training, uh, and, and becoming really proficient with the products.

Speaker 1: 15:28

Yeah, that's, that's awesome. I, um, I find that, uh, you know, know the thing that gets forgotten too, is that, um, fluids, you know, uh, you learn this early on when you're in the industry and, and we've both been in for a long time, but fluids have a way of, um, well, if you look at every substrate it's porous, right? And so you've got peaks and valleys, if you will, if you were to magnify any substrate, even glass and metal, uh, there's peaks and valleys. And so when you have a tape or a peeling stick, you're adhering to the high points of the peaks, so to speak, but when you have a fluid, um, they get into the peaks and the valleys and they become part of the, uh, structure. Um, so you really have a well adhered, um, system that's protecting your, your substrate, uh, all the way around. And then when you look at the chemistry, the STP chemistry, uh, of the systems that you guys have developed, and we manufacture now, um, you've got, uh, similar chemistry working together, whereas, and most systems out there are a, uh, uh, a hodgepodge of dissimilar types of products. You know, you've got, uh, different types of coatings with a different peel and stick with that requires a different primer that, you know, you've got so much going on. And, um, even when the contractor's being perfect, it still, it not work. So, uh, it, it, it's really neat and it's really fun to watch. Um, people be successful with these very intuitive products that have been developed. One of the things honestly, STAs that, you know, I have to tell you is that we really enjoy our partnership with you guys. Uh, you guys are, uh, the pinnacle of, of, uh, of professionalism. And, um, we, we, um, have a great relationship today, uh, because I think we all kind of are on the same page. And, and I love that, but one of the things that's really neat is that, uh, coming out with this chemistry for this application, um, back in when we started the partnership, uh, it, it was the loan ranger, right. There was no one like that. And, um, if, um, uh, imitation is a form of flatter, you have to look around the competitive landscape today in manufacturing and look at the number of people who have had, who have some sort of S St P E coding, or some S T P E detailing product, um, to get in on, on what they realize is, uh, very intuitive and, and very, uh, advanced chemistry for this application. So that, that's pretty cool too, to see that, uh, what you guys created so long ago, um, has been so groundbreaking for the industry. And, um, it's just fun to be part of it, man. And I really enjoy our relationship and working with you guys. So, uh, you know, that's what I have, uh, for you guys today. Um, sta do you have any closing comments?

Speaker 2: 18:37

No. I just echo what you said. Uh, kind of wrapping up the, the, the history. Um, so took the product to market, uh, decided we had something at the end of 2005. So again, and I, I, I didn't know anything about manufacturing, distribution sales. So, uh, we had a toll producer, uh, uh, in the middle of the country making the product for us, and then we took the product to market and, uh, had some momentum in Seattle. And then in Florida, uh, is where, uh, kind of our focus was, uh, coastal areas, uh, and then, and down kind of the west coast. And then, then the east coast had a number of companies kind of, uh, knock on our door, big manufacturers that were starting to be a little bit interested, but again, it was pretty early on. Um, and then, uh, we got introduced, had an opportunity to get introduced to the PROCO team at the end of 2009 and into 2010, uh, interesting time for all of us in construction during the great recession. Um, but, uh, that's what, uh, when the relationship really got forged, um, with PROCO and just, you know, things aligned really right. Um, you know, a fourth generation, uh, 85 year old, uh, manufacturer in the us, uh, really focused and motivated to do it correctly and to, you know, produce a quality end product to the customer and to support, uh, the contractors and the architects engineer specs along the way. And so we didn't have that sense or feeling with the few other companies that kind of knocked on our door. And so, uh, here we are 12 years later and is great. Uh, and the relationship is, is going strong. Um, and I couldn't be happier about it, and it'd probably be one of the defining things in, in my career that I can say that in part, we kind of bettered the construction industry, uh, to a, to a, a, to an extent in, in the us and in north America, uh, with introduced these products. So, yeah, it's great.

Speaker 1: 20:35

Awesome. Well, thank you sta thanks for your time today and thank you for listening to, uh, pro

Speaker 2: 20:42

Right. Thanks, Dave.